What's Good with Redistricting: Part 2

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: What's Good Ohio? I'm your host, James Hayes, and this is the What's Good Ohio podcast where

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: we talk to the activists, organizers, visionaries, and good troublemakers coming together to make

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: our state better for everyone. No exceptions. As always, I'm joined by Sarah Rodenberg

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: from Policy Matters Ohio. What's good, Sarah?

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, James. It's good to see you. At Policy Matters, we right now are deep in the weeds

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: on our annual State of Working Ohio report. So I believe at the time that this is released,

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that will also be out. We release it every year on Labor Day, looks at jobs numbers,

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: at unemployment rates, at just everything that has to do with jobs, the top like 10

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: jobs by population and the pay of them. Really just anything you can think about

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: working wages related, it covers. So that's really where our big focus is right now. And

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: we also just released a big transit paper about how the state needs to put more money

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in our public transit system. So everyone should go read those in depth. That's your

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: homework. What's good at Ohio Voice, James?

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm excited to hear about the jobs report. I remember reading that years

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: ago and yeah, I'm gonna definitely check that out because every single year it is

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting to see how our state's economy is shifting and deteriorating, whatnot.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But over at Ohio Voice, we actually just had a really, really good convening with a bunch

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: of our partners from across the state. We wanted to bring folks together just to

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about this political moment we're in and how we're navigating it on our own

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and navigating it together. Each of our organizations, there's been so much that's

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: happened this summer and this election is there's so much on the line. There's

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: different groups just talking to different communities but all trying to figure out how

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: are we talking to our communities about what's important to them. And then also,

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we did some scenario mapping for sort of post-election scenarios. No matter how

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: this election turns out federally but also in our state is so much on the line,

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: we know there's gonna be a lot happening. The results of the last election remain

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: contested to this day. So we will see how things go and like we just saw in

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Florida a couple weeks ago, there was a primary election where that was contested.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of things happening all over the country and local and state

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: places and it was a great conversation. Always good to get people together in

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: person. The food was amazing. One of the things I think is most important about

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: a good gathering is the food. That's all people really remember.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the only reason I came. Exactly. But yeah, I'm excited to get into this

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation today about how important this election is. Well, let's get into it then.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The hottest topic in Ohio this election cycle is redistricting. We kicked off

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: season two with a conversation with Mia Lewis about what's good with redistricting

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: reform. Be sure to listen to that if you haven't already. There have been many

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: developments since that episode, mostly exciting but some not so great. First the good. On July 1st

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the Citizens Not Politicians campaign submitted 731,306 signatures from every county in Ohio.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Democrats, Republicans and independents all signed the petition to support this effort

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to remove politicians from the redistricting process. Then on July 23rd, the Secretary of

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: State certified that 535,005 of those signatures were valid, officially placing the reform issue

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: on the ballot. However, there's a little bit of bad. On August 16th, the Ohio Ballot Board

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: adopted deceptive and misleading ballot language to go before voters as they vote

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: on issue 1 in November. Despite efforts from politicians to deceive voters,

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: the campaign is bringing the issue to court to give Ohioans fair and accurate ballot language.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Either way, Ohio voters will have the chance to ban gerrymandering in Ohio by voting yes on issue 1

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: this November. To speak with us more about what's good with redistricting reform,

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: we have two guests who have been fighting against gerrymandering for a long time now.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Sam Gresham is one of the people most responsible for breaking down the bears that

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: kept black people out of political office in Columbus. He later served as the President and

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: CEO of the Columbus Urban League for 30 years, as the Chair of Common Cause Ohio,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and as Executive Director for the Ohio Commission on African American Males.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm lucky enough to be able to call him a mentor and if you go to Columbus,

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you just have to ask about Sam and most folks will know who you're talking about.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We're also joined by Deidre Ries, the Voter Engagement Director at the Ohio

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Organizing Collaborative. She's also worked at the Ohio Unity Coalition

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and as the Executive Director of the League of Women Voters, and she even had my job years ago

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: when Ohio Voice got started and she served as Director of Ohio Voice. So if anyone knows a

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: thing or two about democracy, it's these two guests right here. Welcome Sam and Deidre.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Well thank you very much. Thanks for having us.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you each tell us a little bit about yourselves as we get started just so our

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: audience knows who they're hearing from and how you got into this work?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Deidre, ladies are always first.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. I appreciate that, Mr. Gresham.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically I got into this work because I really believe in democracy and fairness.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. You know a little girl who was sort of bounced all around the city

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because things weren't always fair but I had parents who encouraged me to find my voice and

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: be able to speak up for myself when I was lucky enough to just sort of find my way into

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: jobs that gave me an opportunity to use my voice not just for myself but for other people.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I really got involved in the redistricting work when I was at the League of Women Voters,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you know sort of thrown into the fire quite frankly and had to learn the issue very well

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but also was able to continue that work as I worked with the Ohio Voice table.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There was some ancillary work that I did when I was at the Ohio Education Association

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly with the Ohio Unity Coalition and definitely now working with the Ohio

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Organizing Collaborative. The whole point of doing redistricting is just basically it's about

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: fairness and we have lines currently that are drawn that favor a political party and this is

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: not restricted to just one party I saw you know when another party was in control and it

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly is the case now you know he or she who holds the pen holds the power to make it

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: possible for them to maintain that power and I saw it happen in real time even when

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a staff person working in the legislature legislature and seeing them literally draw the

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: home of the person that I was working for out of their district. So you know this is very,

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: very real to me and I've seen it manifest in people's lives that I've worked with in all

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: these different places you know so the through line for me is to just make certain again

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that people have a chance at true democracy and not be have someone to claim that they're about

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: democracy but really be about maintaining their own power in position as opposed to the people.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Mine is a little different I bounced around the world and different cities until I figured

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: out what I wanted to do and it was not the business that we're in now the business

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that I went into initially was television. I wanted to be a major producer a documentary so

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I went to school and I found out the film was not at school so I quit school and I

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: went back home which is Chicago and I went around the very studios looking for work.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't have a college degree at the time so I ran into my arts teacher at high school. She

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: introduced me to somebody she's a graphic artist and on a television station and then she asked

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: me if I was really serious so I studied under this guy for four or five months and this director

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: studio and I threw boxes at night at UPS so I made my money by staying up all night from

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: four in the afternoon to one o'clock in the morning and in the afternoon I went to this TV

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_03]: station and I did that for six months then they introduced me to some people who told me about

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: a job and I went over to get the job but the job wasn't as a executive it was in the scene

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_03]: shop so I took the job in the scene shop and I worked my way up from the scene shop to a production

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: assistant then to an AD assistant director through their system over two years and while I was there

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I did a lot of great shows things you probably never heard of the first black soap opera which

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: was called Bird of an Iron Feather I did the first 100 lecture series half hour lecture series with

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Quaker on Black History I did a local talk show which was really prominent in Chicago it was called

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Our People it was a one-hour call in magazine format type of show and I really learned a lot

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: met a lot of people in that time period but things developed and I realized I needed my degree

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: so I had to leave the fun in the sun and I had to go back to school so I wanted to be as clever

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and as effective as possible and choose in my school so I knew this guy at Chicago State

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and Dr. Jackson and Dr. Jackson gave me a series of tests and this test told me that I would be best

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_03]: qualified you know given your personality and your abilities to do several jobs one was a political

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: scientist a social worker a history instructor a political science instructor and then this

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: thing called Urban and Regional Planning believe it or not I didn't even know what

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Urban and Regional Planning was I became fascinated with it I was still working at the television

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: station and I was working to figure out where I was going from there pick the right school

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_03]: two school came down University of Cincinnati had a five-year program and you leave with a master's

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and the University of Illinois Champaign had a four-year program and a separate one-year

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: master's program so I decided to go to Illinois because the Illinois had this thing called Studio

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: where you actually do activities in the community where they will allow you with the

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: supervision of a professor to actually go out and do work in the community and you would write

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: a report when it was all over and you would have that product to carry around so I chose

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_03]: the University of Illinois and had a great time down there learned a lot of things too much the

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_03]: significant accomplishments that we did was build Francis Nelson Health Center which is a health

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_03]: center that serves the black community and we got John Lee Johnson elected to our Urbana City

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Council well I graduated from there and I went to Columbus that's when I got to Columbus

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and I started working y'all didn't know this I worked with Mayor Tom Moody in his development

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03]: department for a guy named Jack Huddle and I was the first professional planner that they had in

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: the city of Columbus I stayed there for African-American planner in the city of Columbus I stayed there

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: for five years then I went to the Department of Housing and Urban Development where I moved

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_03]: up the ladder to become Chief of Single Family Law Management which is a division that monitors

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and works with communities about single family mortgages and I did that for the portfolio

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: billions and billions of dollars but my plan was always to work in a neighborhood-based

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: organization whether an impact organization economic development organization or social

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: service organization the Urban League came up and I put the things in place we started out with

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: 845 thousand dollar budget and we grew the budget over a six-year period so over 10 million dollars

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: we built a new 25 000 square foot three-story building on a single block so things were going

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: well grants were coming in programs and services and just a little flip happened I tried to become

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: president of the National Urban League that didn't work out too well and I learned a lot

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: about politics at that level and then becoming president of the National Urban League

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: then I decided I wanted to do something on a statewide basis and common cause opened up

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and I applied for common cause and I got that job and I began to learn a lot about

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: statewide organizing and that's what I really began to meet you to and then I decided I wanted

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: to fulfill my dream and the dream was to become an ethnographer and a group of people I wanted to

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: become an expert on what African-American males so I sought the job as the executive director

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: of the commission on African-American male that was the closest organization

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that I knew carried out those types of service I stayed there for three years

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and basically that's where I'm at right now I hope that wasn't too long

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: no that was super informative that's incredibly impressive career especially with so many just

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: different areas that I'm sure as you've gone through them all you can now see the connections

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: between each of them too going into the actual topic of gerrymandering Ohioans finally passed

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: redistricting reforms for drawing state legislative districts in 2015 so we're going on 10 years

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: from that now and they have largely been ignored by the Ohio redistricting commission

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: why is the citizens not politicians campaign so important for democracy in the state of Ohio

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I guess whoever wants to jump in first can ladies always first okay I so appreciate that

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's important because we one have to underscore that the the citizens are still

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: serious about this and we expected them you know the the redistricting commission and the legislature

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to follow what we demanded back in 2015 and they played games with what we passed before what's

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: already in the constitution and gave us some some pretty weak arguments as to why they did not

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: follow through with what their obligation was and basically just did not carry out

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: what they should have actually done so we are living with districts that still are very badly

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: gerrymandered they tweak some things on the side but we have one more republican district than what

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we had before so obviously they did not deal with the real issue you know there's there's

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: representation and there's representation right we know how the voters of Ohio actually vote

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and cast their ballots so when we look at how people cast their ballots the number of votes that

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: go to democrats and the number of votes that go to republicans just don't square with how

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the representation actually shows up in our state legislature we should not have super

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: majorities in the house of representatives and then the Ohio senate that just should not be a

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: based upon how people actually cast their ballots and we saw a redistricting commission

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and the state legislature back them up by giving us lines that are even worse and when we looked at

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the proposals that came forward the state supreme court said this is not right this is not fair

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: this is not actually representative go back and try it again over and over and over again

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the state supreme court itself said this is not right and then there was a play at we're going to

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: do better we're going to bring in some independent map drawers and give them a chance and we're going

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: to have transparency by allowing cameras to come in and watch them draw and you know didra

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: watched the process she literally would sit with one of her laptops with the monitor on

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm just kind of watching and seeing what was going on at while I was trying to do my work

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and then at the 11th hour oh we have a plan and then the plan actually gave us what was even worse

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and even some of those districts even broke up our communities even worse than what it was before

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: we've got legislative districts that have put you know groups of community communities that

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: are supposedly have common interests even worse right how do you how do you break up

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: communities and then put them together where you got urban districts that have been carved

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and now they have these rural areas that are stretched out so far and how do you represent

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a district like that how do you even put a legislator in the position that they've got to

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: drive 100 miles and represent these people that don't even have common interests together

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not even fair to them let alone to the people that they're supposed to be responsible

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: for representing so how do you address that you make it even more clear and the citizens not

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: politicians amendment actually does that it makes it more clear that we're going to just

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: go ahead and take it out of your hands because clearly you don't have the ability

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to not be partisan in the situation and again right now it's a particular party that's in

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: control but in the past there's been another party that was in control that didn't do the

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: right thing either so it's not about we're trying to push the advantage of this group versus

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that group we're trying to push the advantage of the people because it should be about the people

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and getting their interests actually taken care of because right now you don't even have to listen

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to the interests of certain districts I don't care about who has a letter behind their name

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but you can have full debates and never even bring in certain legislators into that debate

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and that conversation and they are representing the same amount of people as other legislators

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what's not fair and that's why it needs to be citizens not politicians because at the end

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of the day I don't care what district you come from you represent the same amount of people

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you should have the same ability to engage fully in a conversation and be able to influence

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the outcome but when you can't even sit in the room and talk to your colleagues and say

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: here's the concern of people who are from this particular area let's at least talk about it how

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it could potentially impact them that is an absolute failure of duty and what should be happening

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in a representative government it's got to be changed and for me the citizens not politicians

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: is the culmination of almost 20 years of effort the first big project that I worked on was this

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: no smoking ban and I know most of the people listening don't even remember that campaign

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: but I was a part of the Franklin County central Ohio contingency and that was the first time

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I really had an opportunity to see big scale campaigning for a significant venture I will tell you

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the politicians acted exactly the way I thought they were I didn't think they were going to

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: cooperate I didn't think they were going to follow the instructions as they were I thought

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: they were going to do what exactly what they did which was to obfuscate and be uncooperative

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and putting together the lines necessary and I knew that that would lead us to having an independent

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_03]: commission but I also felt that what they did going to the supreme court as many times as we did

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and the public watched them act fools and not really try to work the process would give us

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: plenty of evidence to go to say that we needed an independent commission and that's how we got to

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_03]: where we're at that was my vantage point because I never trusted them I had my experience with them

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_03]: over 20 years said to me they were they were going to disregard us they didn't care about the

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_03]: rules they were going to be who they are and it's interesting to have watched different groups

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: of people and that we negotiated with over those 20 year period and to get the last two pieces of

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: legislation passed over that 20 year period it was very interesting and how they succumbed

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: to persistent 20-year effort now again I didn't think they were going to

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_03]: cooperate and do what's necessary because it's politics and they want the advantage

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: whether it's Democrats or Republicans the only people that you can really trust with this process

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: are the citizens you can't give it to politicians whether they're Democrats or Republicans so the

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: posture that we're fighting for now is a natural selection process over for me personal experience

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_03]: more than 20 years and I think the product that we've come up with groups of independence groups

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: of Democrat groups of Republicans all working together and we have an odd number which is 15

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and the instructions already exist for how to do this the one other thing that I have as a

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_03]: part of my experience baggage at common cause for five years we held contests on drawing a

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: balanced congressional state house districts so for five years I had the experience of watching

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: people putting that together and we paid $1,500 to the winner so the process can be done

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I've experienced it from other people and it has evolved to where we are at an important

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_03]: political point and we need to get this pass because if we get this pass we will then have a

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: major effort to change the imbalance that's already been described if you look at the state

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: house it's about 45 55 democrats republic and at times it shifts back and forth

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and right now the republicans have supermajority in both houses and if that's not fair because

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that is not the split of democrats and republicans in Ohio we have to correct that and this

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: effort the citizen versus politician is the best way to do it and I'm asking people to understand

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that if we get this done the representation will be much better across the state and much fair

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03]: across the state

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah thank you those are both those are great argument for the campaign for sure

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you know sam you're talking about this talk about your 20 years of experience

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I just reminded about some of the early conversations I had about redistricting with you

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you were one of the first people who was really talking to me about how important this issue was

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I think a lot of young activists you would care about so many issues but redistricting

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I was not top of mind for me back in you know 2013 when we first met and that was right in the

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: midst of you know all the the work that been going on in 2012 around redistricting leading

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: up to 2015 as well but you were also talking to me just there's so many ways to look at

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: gerrymandering and look at redistricting and have the impacts but you were talking to me

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically about the impacts on the black community and so I was wondering if you could

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: talk a little bit about that I know both of you will have a lot of perspective and insight

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: around that and things you've seen dear to you're talking about someone you worked for their

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: house was drawn out of their district you know that's such a I'd love to hear more about that

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: specific story but yeah can you just share a little bit about it what are the impacts

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: of redistricting on on black folks on our communities.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Our redistricting initially was put together by a guy named Eugene Jerry and it was in

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Boston and it was directed at after the Civil War in reconstruction when black folk were getting

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_03]: up to vote so the first group that it was applied to were black people and it was intended

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: to affect the ability of black people and their political power reconstruction had

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: the first reconstruction I always argued that there were two the first reconstruction really

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03]: changed the landscape of the country politically and it only lasted from 1865 1863 to 1877

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and what happened was the target of most redistricting were black people because they were the first

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_03]: political group other than white people that challenged the system and everywhere across

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_03]: the country after reconstruction redistricting and groups like the group of strength became

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: influential so the genesis of most reconstruction is aimed at the black community to reduce their

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: power and then the first reconstruction was 1863 to 1877 the second reconstruction where this

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_03]: occurred again was 1963 to 1970 and that was during the civil rights era when we were getting

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_03]: voting rights package that was passed and people getting the rights to vote then we had to come up

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_03]: with the voting right act as a part of that to protect our vote but gerrymandering was a large

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_03]: tool in the 60s in the 70s that were used against african-americans specifically in the south

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: to reduce their voting power so most people don't know that it was created to deal with black people

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_03]: if you go back and look at the history of it it's always been about black people

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and will continue to be about black people i would definitely add to that you know one of the

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: phenomenons of gerrymandering is called cracking and packing again very much what has to do

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: with black people they would go in and they would crack into separate districts where there was a

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: concentration of black people so they would separate them into you know more than one district so that

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it would be very difficult for those black folks to still be able to have enough concentrated

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: political power to elect people that they wanted to elect very often folks that look like them

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but definitely folks that had their interest at heart so they would crack those districts apart

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: or they would pack them all together so that now there would be less ability to have

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: influence over the larger legislative body so we still see the same thing and you know i'll give

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you a real life present example when we just went through this last round of redistricting

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: up in northwestern ohio to leto area they took a large portion of the black community into leto

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that were a part of senator polyhiggs hussins district and they moved them into teresa gavel

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: rome's district which then spreads into a very rural part of ohio northwest ohio so now you've

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: got a whole group of largely african-american people who were once represented by a black woman

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: went into a district now represented by a white woman and i'm not saying that she would not

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: still represent them but now they are in a district that has a lot of people who largely

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: have very different interests very rural no longer the urban and suburban kind of interest

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but not only is it a very different complexion literally of people but they didn't even get

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to vote because now they're in a district that it got protected because of the legislative

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: process and with redistricting so they did not vote the last senate election cycle because it

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: wasn't up for election then they got moved so they did not get to vote this election cycle so

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: they kind of got disenfranchised moved no control but they got disenfranchised so that's

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: an impact maybe unintended maybe was intended but that's an absolute impact that happens

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: for them in the story that i talked about before i actually worked for um ryan mclean

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and ryan mclean actually happens to be the first african-american woman who was ever elected to

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the state senate shame that you know that happened you know in the 90s but that's the reality of our

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: experience and not you know common only to ohio but literally her district her house was drawn out

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: of her district and she had to move out of her home in order to run again and it literally was

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: yet this is what we're going to do they drew her home the only home on her street out of her district

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you know it boggles the mind and there was no oh you know we're going to pretend that

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not what we're doing but they did not want her to run and it was a thing of well

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you know it's not fair that just because your father passed away that you should be able to

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: run for this seat now tell me that that doesn't happen i mean we could call the roll on both sides

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: of the aisle where oh the wife of the surviving spouse the son the daughter the whomever

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: end up running for the seat and mind you she had already run and been elected after having

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: been appointed so i don't know where that came from but that's what happened and incidentally when

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: she moved she ended up moving into the apartment that was at the top of the funeral because she was

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a funeral director by trade so you know there's an impact now she still was able to serve but

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: nobody drew any of the white legislators home out of their district but you know that's just not

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: something that happened but here's the reality this is an african-american legislator who was serving

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the african-american community in ways that we did not see the person who wanted to challenge for that

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: seat even coming in and talking to those particular voters about how they could potentially serve them

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: so that at the end of the day is part of the impact because people will say i don't even have to

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: worry about those voters because now i can go and i can talk to all the voters that are in

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the rural community and maybe that will offset maybe the votes that i could have potentially

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: gotten from a more dense urban community and that's the language that we sometimes will use

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: rural versus urban when we know that's cold sometimes for black versus white i mean that

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: let's just go ahead and be real about it and then we watched again in real time this last

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: go-round of the redistricting process and i was sitting at home watching it you know stream

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: i can't remember the gentleman's name ray ray dorossey i think his name you know he was the

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: person that was doing doing the staff work for the republican caucus and he was asked the

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: question well did you look at any of the racial data and you know we we still are supposed to

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: protect the rights of the minority community because of all of the things that have happened right

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know the voting rights act and he said i i i did not look at that and he was pressed

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: by i believe it was a million sacks and why why why didn't you i was instructed not to

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and i felt like i got slapped in the face and i literally went oh my god i'm going down there

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and i'm testified and i jumped up and i put on my clothes and i literally i changed my dress

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and i said nope you need to put on a red dress and cover yourself in the blood you don't shed

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody else's blood because i was so incensed because i'm like but you still have to be concerned

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: because there are so many laws and things that are changing that are impacting how people of color

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: can still come to the polls and cast their votes and get them counted and redistricting is the part

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of that we're still being impacted in an adverse way and here you have this man who was supposed

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to be a fair arbiter as a staff person who said i was instructed not to do something to keep

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the process fair with redistricting which is ultimately about having fairly drawn districts

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: so that people can fairly cast their ballot to elect who they want to represent them

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and he failed in what his duty was by just saying okay you told me not to do it so i'm not going

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to do it well what would happen if somebody said don't count the ballot yeah we we still

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: have the same situation well yeah but but but it's wrong right i mean somebody's trying but it's

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: wrong for this is this is phase one of it fair districts that's phase one the demographic

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_03]: distribution in the state of Ohio is that we have second to california more urban communities

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: than any other state in the union first fact yeah so therefore when you look across the representation

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_03]: in the state house and in the congressional delegation it's hard to believe that we only had

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: two people in the whole state of Ohio in the congressional delegation and these super majorities

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: oh they didn't have any respect and still do not have any respect for us you said it right

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_03]: they slapped us in the face and told us to shut up there's no way you have to leto you have

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_03]: young style you have date and you have cleveland you have Cincinnati and you have columbus and we

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_03]: don't have more people than three in the congressional delegation no that's not right that is absolutely

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_03]: wrong and if you look at the way they carved up cleveland they there were possibility districts

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: where they could have had a 5050 black and white community and it could have been represented

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_03]: by a black person the same existence in Cincinnati the same thing exists in Dayton the same thing

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_03]: exists in columbus and in youngstown but they do those districts so that you couldn't have what is

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: called an opportunity district where it may not be 100 black but a black could win that district

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and they did that intentionally and told us fundamentally excuse me my friends but to go to hell

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: well you got you got two you got three so that's enough it's not even representative of like you

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: said mr. Gresham it's not representative of what actually exists in this state so whether you're

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: looking at the racial demographics or you're looking at how people identify themselves let alone

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: how they cast their ballots it is not representative of who we are in this state so that's all the

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: evidence that I need as Deidre Marie-Rise that they're not doing it right because if they were

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: doing it right it would be different and if they you know you mentioned earlier mr. Gresham that

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you knew that they were going to not do the right thing I actually I'm aging myself but I actually

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: worked on the reform Ohio now right campaign the campaign didn't have all the elements maybe that it

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: could have had and they split it into multiple amendments so that made it even more difficult

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: right but I was involved way back then and I also worked in the legislator at in the

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: legislature at a time when people actually did work across the aisle you know it wasn't perfect by

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: any means but you could get legislation passed regardless of the letter that was behind your name

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you could go to somebody and say hey this is a good piece of legislation let's talk about it

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: there was actual dialogue that went you know that happened across the aisles we as legislative

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: staff could say hey can I talk to your member about this so people weren't as polarized by their

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: partisanship as it is now so I foolishly had hope because of how we got to passing what was eventually

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: on the ballot in 2015 and 2018 because some of the same players were involved in this redistricting

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: process I'm like oh you were one of the authors of this y'all co-authored this bipartisan thing to

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02]: bring us these amendments right so I was like I'm optimistic I should have never been as optimistic

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: as I was I should have never believed that we weren't quite as polarized as we clearly are

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: right now today and I'm horribly disappointed that this is the reality and then what happened

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: on Thursday evening with the ballot language that was revealed by the Secretary of State

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and I may be jumping ahead a question and then the ballot board basically rubber stamping it

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it is appalling in so many ways because I'm like you know what's the expression and excuse my

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: language on it you can't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining I cleaned it up a little

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: bit I'm like are they kidding right there's no way in the world you're literally going to say well this

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to cause gerrymandering and it explicitly is saying this is the stop gerrymandering I'm like

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: can they read English because this is what it says but you're literally going to say the opposite

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's no way in the world you are not trying to persuade people to vote no on this

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: there's absolutely no way that this is not what your game is so how could we not try to get

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: this change now I'm concerned because I know what the Supreme Court this particular court has done

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm also still frustrated that we could not get something to happen when the courts ruled

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: y'all this is unconstitutional this is unconstitutional this is unconstitutional this

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: is unconstitutional because I know if I were in the justice system and they said do this and if you

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: don't there's going to be repercussions I've got family members in the system if they did not

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: abide by whatever the ruling was it was a clank-clank situation and you were back and you had to deal

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: with not just the original repercussion but now you have some additional things and I feel that you

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: know again these are people that hold their hand up and they say that they're going to uphold the

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: constitution and all of that the state constitution the federal constitution and then they're like

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't care you know the the amendment process the citizens initiative amendment process

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: is our recourse when they don't do what our expectation is so not only are they not following

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: through our initial expectation but they are then snubbing their nose at us when we say well

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to take matters into our own hands so we do that and then we got a secretary

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a state who then comes in and goes I don't give a ding-dangle about what you want and

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to manipulate you even more and all of this goes back to the basic tenet of

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I should have the right to pick the person that I want to represent me if I don't get the majority

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of people to agree with me on that that is one thing that you should not be manipulating on

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the front end there's so many threads we could pull on from all of this Sam I wanted to ask

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you a question about your experience with the court case in duty brought up how there were rulings

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and they ruled that maps are unconstitutional it has been deemed that way multiple times and

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: there's an inability to enforce those rules and you also asked an amazing question which was

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you know in response to the gentleman's statement that he was ordered to not look at the voting

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: rights act and look at the racial data and you ask well what if someone orders

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to not count the ballots or you know and I was also thinking who who ordered this you know ordered

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: by whom you know all these things but and you're searching how the over 20 years you know you've

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: seen the rise in polarization between the two parties and it feels like there's a different

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: character behind these decisions you know different maybe it's just more out in the open

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's more it's more revealed but it feels fundamentally different than it felt a little

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: while ago and so you know Sam I was just wondering since you were a plaintiff ensuing the Ohio redistricting

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: commission over the jerrymandered maps you could just sort of talk about that experience and also

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: just you know since our state has been unable to enforce those rulings what does that teach us

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: about the state of our democracy well it teaches us that our democracy is structured not for

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03]: total inclusion and specifically the african-american our political price has never really

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: been exercised in Ohio and it's always been kept in the cage by political trickery either whether it

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03]: was a poll tax or the poll test way back in the 40s in the 50s and 60s up to jerrymandering now

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_03]: when we came up here in the in the 50s with the industrial revolution they needed our labor

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and they needed us to work on the assembly lines but they never thought that we would have a need

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: for political power we had a need for political power and as we transitioned to that we would hope

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that it would particularly coming out of the 60s we had hoped that the jerrymandering would be

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_03]: reduced after the voting rights act but that's what told you how hard and how vicious and how

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: they were not going to give up they got rid of the laws even after we struggle to get those laws

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: passed no no no this is one of the most rigid racist bigoted groups of people you've ever

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_03]: met in your life and they understood that if they gave us political power this state would be

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: radically changed and they didn't want the radical change of the state this is an interesting state

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: with the mix of agrarian and urban communities and how those ideas values and needs are different

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_03]: they didn't want to see a general assembly we had to negotiate with the urban areas versus

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_03]: the rural areas they didn't want to see a congressional delegation that reflected

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the urban and areas they wanted the rural communities to dominate a few weeks ago

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I was at a meeting with some people and we were talking about this so-called polarization

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: it's been here since 1877 and it hasn't changed one eye in that period of time but we were discussing

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_03]: you know white people and black people and we got down to it's all about a pie there's a pie so many

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_03]: inches across and some inches deep and we have to share that pie and they said no we're not

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_03]: going to share the pie that's the bottom line to anybody who is listening to this program the bottom

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_03]: line is they do not want to share the pie economically politically from a standpoint of

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_03]: resources to our communities our economic opportunities they do not want to share the pie

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: and this guy told me straight up to my face he said we don't want to share the pie

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_03]: then I said you're going to have to grow the pie bigger because we're not going to accept this

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_03]: anymore we should have opportunities our contributions to this country are overwhelming

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and when I met James and other young people I'm trying to transmit this that

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: they are never going to give you what you want you always have to fight for it and it will always be

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_03]: that way because they understand that given a few inches black folk will rise to the level of

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_03]: their ability and rising to the level of our ability is domination in every aspect economics

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_03]: social political intellectual where black folk have been given an opportunity they have risen

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_03]: to the highest level possible and guess what our opponents know that facts powerful like

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: don't want to follow that up with a question because 100% wow absolutely but we will follow it

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: up with a question because we are on a podcast so this one is for Diedra we've kind of talked more

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: about you know the impacts and the history of gerrymandering but let's like bring it to the

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: present moment here you've talked to many voters over the years how have you seen issues like

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: gerrymandering resonating with communities you've spoken to and how do you talk to them

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: about this issue to explain why it should matter to them well I would say in the past couple

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: years people are more familiar with the term right so it is a little bit easier than what it was in

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the past but I usually start out by talking to them in the same way that I've always talked to

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: voters what's important to you right there is not a single thing in anybody's life that does

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: not get back to this issue quite frankly if you are a parent trying to get affordable child care

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the person that sits in the legislature or in the congress you want to be able to have a say

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in who is that person because they're the ones that are going to be allocating funds for

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: childcare daycare services they're the ones that are going to be setting the standards for

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: those people who are going to be the teachers you know so ultimately if you're not picking them

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and they are picking you there's an impact if you need to have funding for your parents to be able

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: to have Medicare and you know affordable Medicare subsidies that's a political decision right and

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody else is going to be making the decision of what you have access to or you don't have access

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to if you are a couple that just bought a home on a street and suddenly somebody's putting a burning

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: cross out in your yard whether or not you have the ability to call the police and really have

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: someone provide you with the protection and then have policies that will hold someone

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: accountable for it that is a political decision and you might need to have the laws changed

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: so that there's some enforcement behind that but if you have people that could care less

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: about your suffering behind that because they picked you and you didn't pick them then that

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: goes back to gerrymandered districts so there's nothing in our lives that doesn't get touched

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: by this but if you don't know what people care about you can't talk to them about that so

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to know what people's experiences are so i'm walking to your door to talk to you

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm looking in your yard do i see a tricycle you know or a bike maybe i'm old again i might be aging

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: myself but do i see toys for a child right um do i see a ramp so maybe there's somebody that is

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: disabled and needs to use that ramp so i'm thinking in my head i need to approach so i'm

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: going to ask some questions oh i noticed there were some toys out here you have small children

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: oh i noticed there's a ramp you know is there did you buy the house like this or was this here

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_02]: when you moved in oh no we had to put that in because you know so-and-so you know is in a

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: wheelchair now so now i got something to talk to you about well yeah well do do they get enough

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_02]: care you know do they have access to nursing home care do they have physical therapists come

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: out i'm going to bring it back around and because i know this issue because i've been working

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it so long i have the ability to help make the connections but then i got to keep having conversation

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: in finding out more and more about that person and then when i could have the political conversation

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that i could say well you know representative smith was against us having a fair district process

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's why we don't need representative smith in office because representative smith

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: wants to pick his voters or her voters as opposed to the voters picking them

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's not a fair system shouldn't you have the ability to determine who represents you instead

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: of them having the ability to pick who they represent it's just not fair you know so i

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the thing that's important and people get that they that resonates with them that they're

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: like what i'm not really having the influence on that because somebody has decided the process

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: over here uh-uh that's why it was so easy for us to collect all the signatures that we did you know

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and some people you know well you termed in 737 thousand and only 500,000 qualified i'm like

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that was more than half a million people sign this and people paid attention they knew what they

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: were signing frankler rose quit playing games because guess what ohiolans are not stupid

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you may think that we are but we're not you thought they were smart when you were running in the

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: bright married and maybe they really were maybe that's why you didn't make it through

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02]: so you can ask yourself whatever question and answer whatever question you think but i think

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: ohio voters are very smart and when i was circulating petitions i actually had conversations

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: with people i wanted them to understand and they were reading they were i'm not signing this and

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't know what it is explain this to me show me that people are not stupid but we got over 730,000

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: people to sign it the ones that were disqualified maybe it was because they were not registered

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe it's because they didn't fill that line out appropriately it's not because they didn't

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: support the issue that's a whole lot of people and it was hard to get those signatures

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and if we had had more time maybe we could have gotten more but why did we not have more time

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because we had an attorney general who was like yeah i'm not going to accept that language

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah i'm going to make you come back again playing games like we always do

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: but can i say i understand their resistance because if we ever get the political power we

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_03]: we deserve we will change this state we will make the state much more accommodating for people of

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_03]: color and you know they talk about latinos but latinos are not really relevant in the state of

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_03]: ohio and my brothers and sisters i hate to say that but it's true the urban communities are

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_03]: dominated primarily by black people and the political sharing is not fair it is not distributed

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: appropriately but we are going to wear them down until we get what we should have in

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_03]: order to live our lives we're americans too we've fought in every war we've given up our lives

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and our blood and our treasure for this country we're on the precipice now if this election as it stands

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_03]: today moves forward we are now going to transform this country we only have so many years in which

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_03]: we can get what is due to us or they're going to permanently lock us in a position where we're

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_03]: going to get what we justifiably deserve and then the only way that happens in this country

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: is you fight and you get the political power every group that has risen to become politically

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_03]: meaningful had to fight for it politics is about who gets what when how and where and that's what

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_03]: it's all about it's never been about anything else and we are due our parts for all the contributions

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that we have made to this community all to this country and all the sacrifices we've made

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_03]: to make it in now people may not know this but we had an interesting history time and gerrymandering

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03]: is got to change see the problem is we don't understand the strength so if they start calling

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_03]: out the army guess who they gonna call they're gonna call people of color and they're not going to come

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: to do their bidding we are in a very interesting point in the history of this country if the

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03]: house changes if the senate changes if we get the voting right act passed which will deal with

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_03]: gerrymandering which will deal with the ability of people to vote and we exercise that power

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_03]: the next thing they're gonna do to us is try and intimidate us the same thing that we saw

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in the same in the second reconstruction 61 to 70 they're gonna do again that's their handbook

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_03]: they're gonna try and intimidate us we have to be prepared for that we have to get ourselves together

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and organize so when they try and intimidate us as we gain this political power we're at a very

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: critical stage in this country and we have to be willing to fight we're almost over the hump

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_03]: all we gotta do is work on this for another 50 years and we'll get it straight

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that's actually right and there's so many threads i want to keep pulling on

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: but we reached the end of our hour together so i'm part of me i'm just like we shouldn't

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: have a whole other conversation about this political moment we're in because there are

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: so many different directions it can go but i just wanted to thank sam thank you so much

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00]: mr. aggression for coming on and being with us and sharing your wisdom and your experience

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and your stories with us and your passion and that's one thing i know i'll be taking away

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm not quite as young as i was when you first met me but it's inspiring to see how you're still able

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to bring so much passion every day and did your thank you so much for joining us as well sharing

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_00]: your wealth of experience and you both have been leading the fight to end gerrymandering

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: for as long as i've been doing this work um you've been two of the the key put folks i mean

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: when you were the league women voters and this was like one of the key things you were working on

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and sam i know you know you were like i said you were one of the first people to talk to me about

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: this issue and so it's so amazing to see you know how far we've come on this issue that we're right

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in the precipice of finally closing the book on this fight i do believe that we'll win and we'll

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_00]: have an independent commission moving forward and implementation we'll have to you know we'll

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: still have to figure out how all that'll work and i'm sure it will not be a smooth road

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00]: um as we've seen they're always trying to find as y'all talked about they're trying to throw

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_00]: roadblocks in the way of our progress at all at all times um i know that y'all will be continuing

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the fight for voting rights and other things as we try to undo the harm that's been done over

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the last decade by the supermajority by this gerrymandered legislature so thank you both so

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_00]: much uh for joining us sarah any i don't know any last words you want to say sarah or anybody

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: nothing specific to add besides just thank you both so much for joining us and giving us

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: all of your knowledge that ohio that you described is the one that i want to live in

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: where everyone is represented and where people are actually serving the communities that they

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: live in and that there's accountability for that so thank you both so much thank you thank you

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: as always visit what'sgoodohio.com for show notes and links and subscribe to what's

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: good ohio wherever you get your podcasts we'll see you next time to keep talking about

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: what's good here in ohio